Episode 96: Interview with Samantha L. Miller

Dr. Samantha Miller is our guest today. She recently published Chrysostom's Devil, Demons, the Will, and Virtue in Patristic Soteriology with InterVarsity Press. She gives us an introduction to John Chrysostom, how to say his name among other things. We then discuss his connection to Stoicism, virtue, demons, and death. Dr. Miller also gives us a preview of an upcoming book towards the end.

Timestamps:

3:27- Background on Chrysostom

17:05- Demons and the Devil

26:11- Suffering and Evil

54:05- Chrysostom, Wesley, and Patristics

Episode Transcription

Charles Kim 0:00

Hello, and welcome to history of Christian theology. My name is Chad Kim. With me this week will be Samantha Miller. And I'll be interviewing her about her recent book with InterVarsity press on John Chrysostom. Demons, the devil and virtue in the Christian life. So I would recommend this book heartily. I enjoyed reading it. And Dr. Miller has a lot of insight to offer on the thought of, of Chrysostom, and exactly how the ancients thought about demons, which is a topic that's a little hard and strange, maybe for some moderns. But it's a it's a very great book and a good conversation. And as Chrysostom was very helpful, so I'm appreciative of Dr. Miller giving her time for this interview. And we'll be the next episode. I think it's probably going to be another interview. We have a lot of interviews lined up. And so hopefully throughout the next several months, we'll be able to release those Gavin ortlund Phillip Cary, my, one of my colleagues at SLU. Laura lock Estes, we got a lot of good stuff coming up. So stay tuned. And please like us, rate us and review us on iTunes. We're on Twitter now at theology X Ian, and on Facebook at lots of different places. Let us know what you think. And thanks for listening. Well, welcome to a history of Christian theology. My name is Chad Kim. This week, I have Dr. Samantha L. Miller. And she has recently published a book with InterVarsity press called precisamos. Devil, demons, the will and virtue and patristic soteriology. Dr. Miller is the visiting professor, assistant professor of theology at Whitworth University in Washington. She just recently changed positions from from Anderson University. And yeah, we're, I'm happy to talk with her today about John. Well, I usually say I used to say Chris awesome. A friend of mine here at St. Louis University, she says Chris system, so I guess we could even just start there. How do you pronounce his name?

Samantha Miller 2:06

Either is completely acceptable. I I grew up and just will not grew up. But I grew up academically, just saying Chris system. So I'm gonna say Chris system all the way through. But I've noticed that Brits and Australians tend to go with Chris, Chrysostom, and Americans tend to do Chris system. So

Charles Kim 2:24

Ah, okay. Yeah. Becky Walker is a friend of mine. She wrote a little bit on almsgiving in what I was calling Chris. Awesome. But she kept calling Chris system. And so yeah, so I think I might go back and forth. A little like I did early on with, well, I grew up hearing people say Augustine. And then when I was with a father, David McCone, who was my advisor, he said, he said, Well, you're with the Catholics now. So you're gonna say, and it's not a city in Florida was his other line. All right. Well, so should I call it her? Well, actually, I could edit this out. Should I call you Dr. Miller? Would you prefer Dr. Miller or Samantha in this conversation? Doesn't matter to me. Okay. I just want to be sure. Yeah. All right. Well, Samantha, can you tell us a little bit about John, who was John Chrysostom? And, and how does he sort of fit in overall Christian history.

Samantha Miller 3:27

So John Chrysostom, lives in the late fourth century. He He's born right around 347, and dies in 407. So he's the last half century of the fourth century. So at that point, Christianity is legal in the Roman Empire. And we've already had the Council of Nicaea. And the council. By the time he's preaching by the time he's, he's in the priesthood. We've had the Council of Constantinople as well, where we get our Nicene Creed. And so they've sort of not only is Christianity legal, but we've we've sort of made the made a lot of the major strides in the sort of the first development of theology and understanding the Trinity is and how we understand how to talk about God. And they're not by any means done. But the baseline has been established by the time Chris system comes around. And excuse me, so Chris system is he wants to be a hermit, basically, he wants to be an ascetic, he, he wants to do this, all he's raised by his mother, primarily, his father is very young. And his mother's a Christian. He's raised this way, and also gets an educated sort of classical rhetorical education that all the elite boys would have gotten. And he's very good at it. And he goes on here when he finishes his studies. He wants to go live as a monk out in the mountains outside Antioch and his mother does not want this. So he lives in sort of a small group, like a home small group, sort of learning from a holy man sort of thing. Anyway, when his mom dies, he does actually go into And for years as a hermit out in the mountains, but actually fast, so he's a bit of an intense personality, which he brings into his asceticism. And so he like fast and prays and doesn't ever sleep and doesn't ever sit down and all those sorts of things. But he does so much of it that he actually injures his health to the point where he has to come back to the city. And when he comes back to the city, the people there, they had this practice at the time of basically kidnapping people and ordaining them, like the people they thought would be the best for, for the priesthood, which sometimes I think would be a better way to do it still. So they they in 386, they make him a priest, and then he becomes famous for his preaching, more than anything else. That's Chris system is not his last name. It's his nickname, The Golden Tongue. And so he's the golden mouth or the golden tongue. And he is known for his preaching sort of like a fourth century, Billy Graham, like people would come to hear him preach. And so he's known for this. And in so he's in Antioch, which is an age of minor, modern days, Syria, or Egypt, Syria, in Turkey, excuse me, Asia Minor turkey. It's the middle of summer. And then, in 397, he is ordained and appointed the Bishop of Constantinople. So he's like the head of the Eastern Church at that point. And as an intense personality, he likes to call out sin all the time from the pulpit, including for people who are there, including the Empress, who's in his congregation at Constantinople. And the Empress doesn't really like this. So she has an exiled. And then there's some sort of big misfortune that happens, and she calls him back. And, and then he does it again. And she exiles him again. And there's a lot more to that story. There's other injuries and bishops and political stuff going on. But the end result is he gets exiled again and dies on the second exile in 407. So he's, he's primarily a preacher. And he is, in terms of Christian history, one of the greats, he's certainly the great on the eastern side. He's sort of counterpart to Augustine on the west. And he's just someone we should know. He's someone who does all of his theology in his preaching. And I think partly because of that is really good for just normal everyday Christians who want to know more about who God is, because he's, he's not preaching. He's not writing the super speculative theology that a lot of others are doing. He is taking his intellect and his theology and trying to get people to live the way he thinks God wants us to live.

Charles Kim 7:43

That's very helpful. So, you know, it's sort of interesting. We, part of the reason I've been doing some more interviews, is I want to get experts from other areas. So we had Dr. Wix Dr. Jeffrey Rick's, and we're going to have my friend Laura Estes, who's a PhD candidate talk a little bit about Syriac Christianity. So Syriac Christianity tends to be even further east. But it was always kind of a unique one to me, right? Because he's speak he's speaking and writing in Greek primarily, but he's in that area with like, in the general vicinity, I guess we could say, of where a lot of this Syriac Christianity is coming up. So what what is his relationship with overall like this, this part of Christianity called Syriac Christianity, or? Yeah, so how does he fit into that part?

Samantha Miller 8:32

Yeah, he is really bordered, certainly when he once he's in Constantinople, he's firmly head of the Eastern Church. And it's, he's not much in the Syriac, that point although we have translations of Chris system into Syriac. So we have that he has definitely made it among the Syriac Christians, or Syrian Christians. But when he's in Antioch, he's cool. I mean, he's in Syria. And so he, he is only writing and speaking in Greek. And that's just the language of the place in the area and sort of the institutional bit of it where he is in the churches where he's preaching. But he does get he gets taken over by them. He's not so much going to preach to Syriac Christian are Syrian Christians. And he's not we sort of separate him out from F Romanov, Rohan and the rest of them in Christendom as well. On the one hand, he's he's a little bit less poetic than from, or whomever the Syriac Christians, but he's not. He's not so far removed from them. You're right, but we don't ever treat him as in a similar category. Yeah.

Charles Kim 9:41

Well, and as people who've read their New Testament will be familiar. Antioch is the first place that Christians are called Christians. So it has this long and storied Greek history. And, you know, it is a stronghold of Christianity. In Greek. It just also happens to overlap a little bit with this with the development of the other language. Anyway, I just found that to be kind of an interesting, because Chris system is sort of unique to me in that he can kind of, in some ways, he seems like he's more like the anti Keynes. But he has great influence in the in the sort of in the Greek east and that sort of not exactly Alexandrian. But he can be, he can have his elements where he looks a little bit like both. And so anyway, he's just sort of an interesting figure with his broad influence, let's

Samantha Miller 10:26

say, yeah, absolutely. Another thought that's just disappeared from my head. But maybe I'll come back.

Charles Kim 10:36

And that's like the connection to, to Billy Graham to so that sort of brings him a little bit into the modern day. So what what exactly drew you to study and Chris system and doing your dissertation on him and this book, and presumably there's there's more to go? What Why is he so fascinating for you personally? Or is it just more happenstance?

Samantha Miller 10:56

No, I mean, I, I fell in love with him in college, actually. I went to Hope College in West Michigan, and just an undergrad primarily, you know, small Christian liberal arts school, very good one very rigorous, and was in just a really good religion program. And we also had a pre seminary society. And actually, interestingly enough, Jerry's Dr. Jerry Spitzer, who is at Whitworth where I now am, or who has just retired from Wentworth, where I now am, had come to give a guest lecture give a guest speaking thing, and he spoke to our pre seminary society at Hope. And he was talking about things that he was doing with some of the pastors in his area. And he said, Oh, if you really want to read a good book on pastoral theology, you want to read John Chris systems on the priesthood. And I was the kind of student who went and got it from the library the next day and read it in one sitting, and just fell in love with it just thought this guy, he gets why you should maybe be awed by your call and afraid of your call to ministry, and that pastoring is not easy. And as I was sort of wrestling with what it would mean, to be in ministry, as call to ministry, so I just felt a kindred spirit, like immediately with John Chrysostom. And, and then in my religion classes in my hips, taking a church history class and a Greek class at the same time, I was reading the desert saints, and both of those and just sort of fell in love with this whole region, this realm, but especially Chris system, who had just felt like, Man, I think I understand him, I think he might get me. So yeah, sort of, and then never looked back. I just pursued that all the way through and through grad school and just found the kinds of texts that I was interested in. So this book, what is the revised form of my dissertation and, and just fell in love with this passage that I work on the last chapter in, in the book, it's a passage from his homeland Genesis, about virtue and what it is and how we shouldn't neglect our salvation and how demons play into that. And so, yeah,

Charles Kim 12:56

yeah, I guess, Hope College must be a great breeding ground for patristic scholars, because Father Makoni, my advisor actually went there. Although he's, of course, Catholic, he loved Hope College, I think at one point almost returned there. But he he really loved his his time there as an undergrad. And I think it played it played some role in his decision to write on Augustine for his dissertation. Funny. Yeah. It's not what you'd expect. I know a little bit about Hope College I've never been, but you wouldn't necessarily expect there to be a Catholic Jesuit. There at at Hope. But But yeah, he really appreciated it. Well, so the book, The revised form of your dissertation, but as just a very readable and interesting book, I really appreciated your, the sort of way in which you bring together some really important strands of thought in Chris, Chris DOM and Chrysostom, and then the theology of the of the general period. So let's just really broad strokes, can you give us a little bit of sort of a summary of the thesis and why devils and demons are so important for Chris system?

Samantha Miller 14:12

Yeah. So. So the book is based, I'm basically arguing that when Chris system talks about demons, which he does a fair bit more than some and less than others in his in his time period. He when he talks about demons, he's primarily using them as a backhanded way of encouraging his congregation to be virtuous. And that's important because virtue is an essential aspect of salvation for system. So that's the that's like the thesis, and the ideas are about criticism is always talking a lot about well, he's pretty much always talking about virtue. He's a future always talking about how we ought to live because he's a preacher. And this is where sermons end up. But he's also he's talks a lot about suffering. And when he's talking about suffering, he gets into ideas of like, all of his congregation wants to say, well, the demons are causing all of the suffering, and, and he's saying, Well, you know, there, maybe, and maybe not, but even even if they are that sin, that's part of you that that's part of what's happening and causing suffering. And demons are not causing this. And so what he's really doing is saying, every time you try and say, well, this sin that I did was because a demon made me do it, or the human is the cause of this river. That's completely false. He says you have and we can get into the terms a little bit more. But I focus especially on this term, the pro races, the faculty of choice that every human has this ability in them this piece that, but the devil can't control that you can choose not to sin, Christians, at least can choose not to sin is a little bit. I'm still unclear whether he means all humans can do this, or if they have to have been baptized. What like how Christ forms? Should we change his reforms? The prior races, but but he's saying you got this in you, you can resist the devil. You don't have to be afraid of the devil who's his baptismal homilies, though do he preaches to the people about to be baptized, he's all that all the time saying, Do not fear the devil at all. You don't have to fear hell, but don't fear the devil, the devil can't take you to hell, you will send yourself there. And so that is sort of every time he talks about demons. That's what it is, is he saying, just remember, they're not they're powerless, demons are powers, they can't hurt, you can't do real harm to you. Because real harm is harm to your soul. And you're the only one who can harm that because you have this faculty of choice, that, that that you can choose against the sin, and then you can be virtuous. So therefore, you ought to be virtuous. And you really need to be virtuous, because it's the thing we bring to our salvation after Christ is and all the all the work. So that's sort of the the basic idea.

Charles Kim 17:05

Interesting. Yeah, it just occurred to me while you were talking that some of the ways that you explore precisely the use of the devil and demons reminded me a little bit of CS Lewis's work, and The Screwtape Letters. And one of the things I believe, he says in the introduction is something like, you know, there's sort of two errors that you can make when thinking about demons and the devil. One is to think that they don't exist at all. And the other is to like, look for them under every stone. So it seems like maybe, Chrysostom would agree with that, like this sort of a balanced approach to the demons and these sorts of other not otherworldly. But the spiritual forces that are working against this?

Samantha Miller 17:48

Yeah. Yeah, although he wouldn't. No one in the fourth century was questioning whether demons exist. So that's the one is he wouldn't like he's like, they're obviously they're there. They're just part of their world in particular, cosmologies, just everyone, pagans, Jews, Christians, everyone believes that there are these these demons out and these spiritual beings out there. And they'll define them differently. But they're all there like, no one is worried about that. But yeah, he keeps telling us Congress, he's almost got to be two strands in his congregation, he's got the people who fear the devil overly much. And then he's got the people who sort of don't take them seriously enough. And so he's trying to to find that middle ground and say, Yeah, you don't have to fear them, because you can do something about them. But you should also have constant vigilance so that you don't fall into their traps. And so that's the that's

Charles Kim 18:40

the Yeah, and that's interesting, and that sort of ubiquity. The Omnipresence almost of demons in the minds of his congregation, it sort of made me think a little bit about how in the Desert Fathers and a lot of the early monastic literature, they talk about demons, like very frequently, and about how the demons are sort of oppressing them and tempting them and all these sorts of things. And that's interesting that it's just as present in Chris systems preaching, because that means so those ideas and that sort of fight against the demons wasn't just for those who had committed themselves to living in solitude in the desert or in the mountains or away from the city. But everyone sort of saw these demons that wasn't the particular purview of just the monastics is that right?

Samantha Miller 19:27

Yeah, that's exactly right. And and Chris systems program is basically trying to get all of his people to live like monastics or excuse me to live like the ascetics in the cities where they are, as the holds the monks up as the highest ideal of virtue, and then we should, we should emulate them but you don't have to emulate them out in the mountains. You should do it right where you are in the city in your life, with the exception that you can be married if you're in the city. So that is that is his big thing. And yeah, so Chris system is also really interesting. That was the other point I was thinking earlier, was the place where he is As more Syrian is in this history in asceticism, more than Egyptian asceticism, or Egyptian desert, monks, whatever. But that's neither here nor there for this point. But so he his, his, his understanding of his articulation of demonology. And anthropology in this, this blend that he's doing is actually it's, it's unique, I think, among his contemporaries, because you got on the one hand, sort of origin a little bit earlier, but then you got the cap of oceans much more contemporaneously, and others who are doing more much more speculative work on demonology. If they're, if they're talking about demons at all, it's speculative. But they're not really talking about origin does more of that. But in terms of their theological anthropology, and their virtue talk, it's highly technical, philosophical language in a way that that differs from the monks, the desert sayings traditions, because that's exactly right. Chris system sounds just like the folks in the desert, these desert sayings, traditions, and, and they are casting their anthropology through demonology. It's the monkey is always, you know, David Brooks book, demons in the making of the monk that the monkey is the one who struggles against the demons. But Chrysostom is blending that because he's using the philosophical language like prior races, and no May and some of these other terms, using those in virtually language, but then casting his anthropology in terms of demons as well and that struggle against demons and that he's the only one I can I can tell is really doing that blend, just both sort of high philosophy and lay lay people all at once. It's actually really quite fascinating.

Charles Kim 21:59

Yeah, that's really interesting. I had never thought too much about like, the hard and fast distinctions between sort of Egyptian monasticism and Syriac monasticism, and part that's because I'm not all that I've read more of the sort of history of monasticism and Egypt or, I mean, at least familiarity with, like, life of Anthony and such, but I don't know the Syriac tradition quite as well. So that's sort of an interesting and helpful distinction that even in those, you know, you can't just say fourth century monks, you have to say like exactly which fourth century monks and how they're thinking about these these things. And even monk is maybe not, you know, they're different kinds of monks and all of these things. As you know, you don't jump into the history, and you find out that, that are sort of simple phrases. kind of gloss over a lot of interesting distinctions. Oh, yeah. That's very helpful. Um, all right. So one. So I, one of my questions was about the, you talk about the how crizotinib understands the devil is that he has no power. And in fact, some of some things that we might attribute to the devil can be attributed to God. Can you talk a little bit more about why crizotinib says this, like, What did his his congregation it seems like they were saying, the devil is doing this, and that sort of thing. But Chris awesomes actually thinks that it might actually be God. So how does he make that distinction? And difference?

Samantha Miller 23:24

Yeah, this is one of the places where I get real squeamish about what Chris system is saying. And like, I think, so I'm not I'm not a pastor, I'm not ordained. But I, you know, I've done the internships, I went through seminary, and I thought for a while that was part of my call, and, and I've just and I do preach occasionally. And I just don't think you're supposed to say these things from the pulpit. Just, this doesn't seem like great pastoral care, at least not the way I was taught it. So Chris, so we'll talk so his congregation is looking around at the suffering that's in their world. And it's, it's life is hard for all of us all the time. We're, you know, right now, we're in the middle of a pandemic, we have experience of the world not being in our control in the world, including suffering. And it was no different than right, there are plagues, there are famines, there are wars, there's like life is hard there too. And so as he sees the suffering people are and they in particular, where he is there seems to have been a couple times where he's preaching in reaction to earthquakes that have happened to like earthquakes or natural disaster that happened, where he are, where he is, and, and so he reacts to the suffering Pete, his congregation seemed to say, Oh, the demons are doing all of this. They're causing, okay? I mean, it's the sort of perennial theodicy question right? Why are these things happening to us? And, and Chris system is saying, yeah, it could be demons, but even if it is, God has given them permission to do it. And he'll go farther and say, well, not all suffering is caused by demons. You look at job, like Yeah, the demon the devil technically caused it but God gave permission. And so God will sometimes cause things and he's okay saying God caused that early in his homilies on Lazarus and the rich man, he's got one resist. Yeah, God caused that earthquake to teach us to bring us to repentance to it's always pedagogical, when whenever God is causing some kind of suffering, it's it's pedagogical, there's some way of trying to bring us to repentance, or there's some way of trying to encourage virtue out of that, or, or he'll just say it, or think this happens. And it's not about who caused it, but about our response to it, how do you suffer nobly and with with patience, and endurance and, and virtue, and then you're more virtuous, because you suffered well, so I get a little squeamish about some of that he doesn't discount suffering. It's not like he's saying the suffering doesn't matter or doesn't hurt. He is very clear about that he can be there are some places where He's surprisingly pastoral. But he is, he's a little harsher than I think most of us would find comforting in some of this stuff.

Charles Kim 26:01

So what you're saying is, we can't just reread his homilies, when our if you were a pastor, we shouldn't just reread his homily to our congregation who's struggling necessarily?

Samantha Miller 26:11

No, I think you should read them in your study. And then and then decide what is helpful to pass on? And what is less helpful to pass on? Or how to think about, you know, use it as an engagement in these questions. I mean, how do we because because the question, sort of so the book I'm just finishing up now and sending off to a publisher is sort of taking the conclusions of this first book, and putting it in conversation with Christianity in Africa, actually modern Africa, and questions of suffering. So the the people who are answering questions of suffering, they basically want to say, well, who's causing it? Is it other humans? Is it the devil? Or is it God? And those are really the three possible choices? No one, no one in the circles? I'm read. I mean, there. There's also an answer, sort of in modern theology that talks about natural evil and the world is broken. And so things just happen, but, but the people that I'm reading in our system as well, it's basically that those are your options. Humans, demons are God. And, and we're, most people are not okay, attributing this evil or the suffering not. So Chris systems, other pieces, that suffering is not evil, because it does not harm your soul. Only you can do that. So as long as suffering is only physical harm, it's not actually harmful to you. And so because that's the distinction he's making, he's okay saying God is causing the suffering because he's good. And God is not causing evil, God will not cause evil for Chris system, but it's the way he defined suffering. That's, that makes him say, yeah, it might be God, who's doing this. But it wouldn't be God who caused any evil.

Charles Kim 27:48

Yeah. Yeah, that was one thing that struck me and still does strike me about the way that you know, Chris, Chris, Austin, and others will talk about this, you know, God's role in suffering. It does. It does make me squeamish as a modern too. But it's, it's sort of interesting. I mean, I wonder sometimes I think like a lot of our like, as we're doing this, you know, historical, in some cases retrieval, but at least looking back historically, at a different age and a different period. I wonder how much our sort of modern presupposition that everything is good and everything, you know, we're basically we assume that, you know, we have this question, the theodicy question is, why do bad things happen to good people? And sometimes, like, it seems like when you're reading Augustine, and I was actually just looking at something in book 19, of the City of God, it's almost the more interesting question is, why is there anything good at all? And, and so if our paradigm is to think that everything's already good, and everything is already healthy, and you know, we're naturally just good, and all this, the fact that there's even something evil seems strange to us, because we are so you know, we have generally a lot of comfort in modern American life or, you know, modern and sort of a wealthier society overall. And but in the ancient world, maybe that wasn't the case. And so in that way, you can sort of it seems less threatening to attribute it to God, because that's sort of the natural state seems much harsher. I don't know if that's fair, or not for Chrysosotom. But that was one thing. I was sort of thinking as to how he could attribute that kind of thing to God.

Samantha Miller 29:24

Yeah, that's, that's a really good point. I hadn't thought about that. But yeah, I think there is a difference in mindset, right. You know, one of my teachers would always say, as historians we're not, you know, the people in the pitch. They're not just people in funny clothes. They actually have different mindsets, also. Right. And so this would be an instance of that. We can't just assume that criticism saw the world the same way that we did in all the ways and I think it's true I think their their reality we have met with largely with technology managed to convince ourselves that we're in control of a lot are things we're not. And we just assume things are better than they are. And that there's goodness. I mean, Augustine is a little bit is going to be different on this because of his understanding of original sin and all that, that Christmas was just not getting into. It's just not on his radar. But yeah, that could be too.

Charles Kim 30:19

Ya know? No, just yeah, that is the it's the both the fun and the frustration of being a historian. You want to get into the mindset of the other person, but in the people that you're studying, but sometimes it can be really hard, and you can never be 100% sure you have it right. But you can, you know, yeah, we've got the writings, we can get close. But yeah. So one sort of interesting point, as I was reading through this work, was how influenced Chris Austen was by the stoics. And so like, you know, when generally when the Christians, the early Christians are talking about philosophy, tends to be that they view Plato and Plato's Academy in a more positive light, that tends to be the, you know, maybe the primary I mean, Augustine specifically creates a hierarchy of the schools. And always it's Plato is at the top. But it's sort of true, broadly speaking in a lot of different areas of Christianity, but But you focus a lot on the import of stoicism for Chris. Awesome. So could you talk a little bit about that and why he found the stoics so compelling?

Samantha Miller 31:28

Yeah, I don't know. We don't have anything from Chris system that is specifically, we know, he's using anything in particular, in terms of philosophy, and he doesn't, like we're accustomed will rank the schools. And Plato comes out best customer or Chris system is always comparing the philosophers Plato, Socrates, the rest of them, Aristotle, he'll compare them directly to the apostles and say, they, you know, the philosophers were idiots, that these unlearned, fishermen were way wiser. And they had it together, and they had the true philosophy. And so if anything, he uses them more derogatorily and as foils for the true philosophy, and the true understanding, but he was trained in classical education. So he knew all of you would have known all of the schools of thought, and you would have known the things and, and parts of it get in the water was sort of in the water, right or in the air. And so he once or twice will use images of the the charioteer for reason and stuff like that. But he hasn't really, there's not really a place where he'll say, I'm using this stoic concept now, or I really like the stoics. For this, he just you just appropriate, what's helpful. And I think for him, it's the what the particular resonances with the stoicism is these categories of true and apparent harm, which is how he then distinguishes his suffering from evil will say, suffering is is apparent harm, not true harm, true harm is harm to your soul. And nothing, anything that doesn't actually harm your soul is only apparent harm. It's still suffering, he's not going to discount that, that it's not good. And like he'll his letters to Olympia is when he's an exile are all full of all kinds of his own suffering. So he knows what he's talking about. He's not, he's not deluded that life isn't hard. But, but he uses that category to say, yeah, there's there's true harm, and there's apparent harm. And it and then it's this, again, that that pro races, that faculty of choice in us that that is a big deal in stoic thought that he's taking and saying, Yeah, this is sort of the part of you that that, that you have control of that is up to us, is sort of the phrase. And, and so we exercise that and we have to exercise that. So he's borrowing these concepts, but I don't know that he's, I think he just assimilated them into his own thought. I don't think he is necessarily sitting down and thinking, Oh, he wants to be a stoic or anything. I think he's saying, Yeah, this seems like a truth that they got. That seems to be right. And this is the way we think about this theologically, too.

Charles Kim 34:09

Yeah. Well, and just to follow up on that, you mentioned it briefly that thing that is up to us that choice well, so in the book, use a couple of Greek phrase, well, the specifically that whole Greek Greek phrase and then pro high racist, this idea of like, of choice or self determination. So one thing that was struck me as you were explaining how that worked in stoic thought, and then it seemed like it was picked up, or similar, at least to Chris system, is that that place that you get to choose or self determine, that is what makes that is the self. And so at least from a moderns, my sort of more modern perspective, let's say, it seemed interesting because that is what the self is. That is the thing that is sort of most identified with who you are. As a person, is that going too far and how it Chris asked him think about the self, because it seemed like he was really placing a lot of weight on this. This faculty of self determination.

Samantha Miller 35:13

Yeah, yeah, he doesn't use huge weight on self determination. And this this faculty of choice and amusing and do note in the book, and you sort of noted in your questions to me that yeah, I use the phrase self determination as opposed to free will, because free will is so laden with baggage from Palladian debates with Augustine, that, that I don't want to go anywhere near that, because that happens after criticism. And also, Chris system just isn't thinking about those categories. And those debates. So I keep using self determination is like this. This is we are self determining creatures. We are free. But I don't want to get into the original sin freewill debates either. But yeah, so. So the stoics had this it just kind of came up in a couple I think it was epic, Tito's, it could have been someone else who had this this line where the CELT, the Priory says is the self. And that's the the bit, Chris system doesn't really go that far himself. But I think if you were, if you were going to think about it, part of it is hard, because in that sense of trying to get back into the mindset of someone who lives 1600 years ago, is I just don't I, there's a part of me that thinks he would laugh at our modern conceptions of the self in all the light media and, you know, TV and movies and things like that. And so part of me is trying to figure out well, yeah, he would obviously be laughing and our conceptions of self this way. But what would he actually what would he say about this? I think he would. Yeah, it's the part of us that can't be controlled by anything else. And it's the part of us that is free. And it's the part of us that that we have control of, so I guess that would probably, he doesn't talk about it this way. But I think that would it would make sense to say, yeah, that's sort of the who you are, but not in the way we talk about who you are. Today, either like, because when we ask people like when we ask high school seniors that, or I work with undergraduates that are asking, they're asking that all the time, who am I? And? And in some sense, the answer is, yeah, it's the choices you've made, and the choices you will make, and that that is like who you are, as opposed to who anyone else is. But I don't know. I don't see Chris system having any patience for the way we asked that question today, anyway.

Charles Kim 37:39

Yeah, well, it's interesting, like, the phrase that you use is the thing that is up to you. And at pay Mon, I guess, or EPA mean, I guess it's data. And so the so that's the phrase that comes up, and it just strikes me as you were talking there. You know, and I guess as far as I understand the stoic outlook, there's very little that is, in fact, up to you. Yeah, of course, that is where the self is, right? So. So stoics are fairly famous for believing in the necessity of fate. And, you know, in some ways that that controls all that is, and they're sort of you have very little that you can control. So of course, the thing that you that is up to you is who you are not because of like you say some kind of question about like, you know, how, whether or not you're going to keep or reject what your parents taught you or, you know, like, do you find yourself in travel or these sorts of, you know, the things that a lot of us identify in the modern world with sort of adolescence and late adolescence and that sort of thing. But literally, if you don't even control some of the physical world around you in the events around you. Of course, the thing that's up to you is who you are.

Samantha Miller 38:47

Yeah, yeah. Right. It's, yeah. But it's the thing that you control the thing that is up to you. And it is the choices. And there's a way that we could, that I could use that with my undergraduates and talk about Yeah, what is the what are the things that are up to you not just do you find yourself in trouble, but like, what did you do this morning? That is who you are. Right? And I think it's probably actually a better conception than the way we talked about it. In SAP your ways.

Charles Kim 39:20

It reminds me of one of my favorite things that I've used in an intro to theology classes. And so as part of our fellowship at SLU, we have to teach intro to theology. And I usually end with the David Foster Wallace commencement address where he talks it's called the this is water. But he says that the the most important thing is to learn how to think and when you learn how to think you're it's the How does he say it so you have a million little unsexy decisions that you make every day. And so he says that that actually is the difficult and hard task of learning how to think it's an Not whether or not you're, you know, become more liberal or become more conservative are these sort of like grand things? It's what you do, as you just said, what like on a daily basis, a little unsexy decisions? How are you going to think about the people around you, the world around you? Are you going to be charitable? Are you going to be uncharitable? Are you going to imagine the best about them, the worst about them? And he says, that is actually learning, the sort of the cliche that we hear at liberal arts colleges, learning how to think it's not any grand thing. It's really difficult little small decisions. And I guess there could be some sort of stoicism even in David Foster Wallace's thought, I don't know if you've ever heard that. But it's one of my favorite kind of what is my favorite commencement address? But

Samantha Miller 40:45

yeah, and I mean, and that's sort of where Chris system goes. I mean, that's, that's his idea of virtue, right? It's every single moment, are you choosing the good or not choosing the good, it's the million unsexy decisions. And so that is what I use in my undergrads a lot when we have these, because I love I actually have a class where I take them backpacking in upstate New York for a couple of weeks, and it's just as great but a lot of the campfires involved in there's been a shift, actually, I've been doing it for about 10 years. And there's been a shift recently, they're asking the question, Who am I more than what am I supposed to do with my life, which is a very fascinating, I don't even really know what to do with that shift. And where our students are, and what's going on in their lives and what we're going to get this fall with, when we're in the middle of this pandemic, and everything but, but that idea that, that who we are, I think I would agree with that, actually, that question of who we are, is about these everyday decisions. And not just learning to think but even the, this is who we are, and for Christmas, and that's, that's those are the moments of virtue, what if What have been your choices, and every moment, and that will add up to your whole virtue, your whole, you know, whatever your level of virtue is, or whatever. And who you are.

Charles Kim 41:56

Well, I have a couple of different ways that that I could go with this, but let's I'm not, I was going to take you down and Augustinian turn just because I can't help myself. I'm going to refrain from that because you've I following your footsteps and lead in the book. I wanted to get to the end of the book, while we still had time because it won the homily that you quote on Genesis eight, or Well, I guess is it is it on yet? No, it's not actually on Genesis eight. It's just the eighth homily in Genesis.

Samantha Miller 42:26

Yeah. It's Chapter Two or something. Yeah,

Charles Kim 42:31

it's a really powerful homily. And that kind of becomes the it's a close reading of that text where you take take up the place of virtue in salvation. And the so I'll just read a little bit from precise them here. So this is what he says. And I guess this is your translation, actually. Is that right?

Samantha Miller 42:52

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, almost everything in the book is my translation.

Charles Kim 42:56

Well, that's another way that I was gonna go was reading through Christmas, the translation of Chris system Kasasa, in the Nicene, and post Nicene fathers gets really cumbersome, because we're like 19th century language. But anyway, so this is your translation. Therefore, let us not think too little of our salvation, for nothing is as important as virtue beloved, for this virtue snatches us out of Gahanna in the coming age, and gives us the enjoyment of the kingdom of heaven. And in our present life, it establishes us as superior to all those who attempt to plot vainly and rationally and not not only human beings, but the very demons as well. And it even makes us stronger than the enemy of our salvation. I mean, the devil. So I'll stop there. So for for Chris, awesome, as you explain, Well, it's not just being virtuous, so that, you know, you might live a good life or that things might sort of go better for you internally or whatever. But actually, this virtue is connected to salvation. For Chris. Awesome. So can you play that out a little bit? That might be you know, I think I put this might be one of my questions toward the end. But that might be a little hard for modern years. So how is it that our our virtue relates to our salvation?

Samantha Miller 44:10

Yeah, so this is one of the places that every time I write something about this, and editor wants a footnote about how this is not Palladian ism. And I always have an hours as a, as an early historian, I always want to make some, like, flippant remark about how it can't be bleeding ism, because Plages looked after Christmas don't. But you know, modern systematic theologians don't really find that funny. But yeah, so because this idea is actually fully in line with the Eastern concept of soteriology at the time, and still actually it's pretty it's still what they what they go within, and Catholics have no problem with this, either. It's really post reformation Protestants. Who Well, yeah, Protestants, right. It's those of us post reformation who are on the process. side of it, who and Evan Jellicle is even more so because we're so, so ingrained in in us, and especially anyways, I'm actually a Wesleyan. But anyone from Lutheran or Reformed traditions especially are really heavy on the you cannot earn your salvation thing. And this language and Chris system can sound like that. But what criticism is saying is actually that there are two parts to salvation. There is God's part, and there is our part. And he says, God's part is in godly does all the heavy lifting God's part is the incarnation, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, right that, that all of the major parts of salvation have been accomplished in Christ's work in incarnation in cross and resurrection. And that has changed us and made us evil to be virtuous. Again, we were we were created, able to be virtuous. And we fell right with Adam and Eve in the fall and all that. And Christ has redeemed and renewed so we can be virtuous. And so Christ has done all the major parts of salvation, but we still have to participate. And participation language works for me, I don't know if it works for everyone, but we participate in our own salvation. So when he says, don't think too little of your salvation, nothing is as important as virtue. It's that we are bringing our virtue there's other places where he talks about we bring our faith, to, to, to our salvation, as well. But most of the time, he says, we bring our virtue so we bring our virtue to our salvation. And it's it's that using the image a number of times that at our baptism, we are given a clean white robe to wear and then both literal the Baptist, those baptize would come out of the the fountain be given a clean white robe. When he buddy, this is also metaphorically says you've been given this robe, you need to keep it spotless. And so your virtue is keeping it spotless, keeping yourself worthy of the salvation that you have been given. And again, Worthy is another one of those words that we get real squeamish about those Protestants of us, right. We don't, you can't be worthy, you can't earn your salvation. He's not good. He's not saying that, but you want to be worthy of it. You want to be worthy of what God has done for us. And that's the that's sort of where you're going. So it's a cooperative salvation. And it's, it's, it's a participation. But it's not that our salvation hangs on what we do. Purely. You can lose your salvation. You can you can backslide, again, I'm a Methodist, and so we can backslide. But you, you can't. You can't affect your own salvation, like Christ has done the prior and more important work. And then we add what we can what little weekend to it. That makes sense.

Charles Kim 48:02

Well, it, hopefully, that I think at this point, I haven't quite figured out how I'm going to release these. But I did a conversation with Philip Kerry from Eastern University. And he just wrote a book called The meaning of Protestant theology. Now Dr. Kerry is a philosopher by training and sort of a theologian in the end by practice, and without the sort of historical bit so you and I are more trained in this historical theology. But one of the things that I think Kerry gets exactly right about how Agustin and even the Catholic oceans and others how they understood salvation. You know, we tend to as you say, in a post post reformation world tend to think about salvation as the thing that is assured. Right so for Calvin, that's the most important thing do you have perservere into the end? And can you be assured of that and that's sort of the in the grows out of Luthor. But But what Carrie says as he says that, you know, we need to remember that in Augustine, he actually saw this a similar thing to what Chris awesome describes here, which is that salvation, you can't know that you will be in the end with God. Salvation is a thing that gets given to you upon your death when you achieve the beatific vision at the very end of all things, it says as cattle eschatological thing, and so it's sort of the reformed that placed this like, odd emphasis on being certain in the beginning and in the end and then doing nothing. And so you know, so anyway, I would recommend that that conversation with Dr. Kerry in our podcast to our to my listeners, but you know, the Augustinian line is you're saved in hope in spay not yet in array not yet in reality. And so it's it's something that begins and as you pointed out correctly, you know, this Christ does the heavy lifting and the hard work, but in order to push Severe until the end for Agustin, you, you have to keep on the path, you have to keep your eyes, cast on Christ on the path and you can turn the other direction. That is, that is a possibility for Augustine and baptism doesn't necessarily ensure that you've kept your eyes on the prize for the whole time. But but because for Augustine, everything is a journey and a pilgrimage. You can't say you've arrived at your destination, because you're still walking there. You're not yet there. So I don't know if you'd care to respond to that. But I found it really helpful and instructive, even from a more systematic, theological perspective. I think Carrie got that. Exactly. Right.

Samantha Miller 50:42

Yeah, I think so too. And I don't know Augustine, nearly so well as you do, or nearly so well, as I as I know, Chris system. But yeah, that sounds right. And that's I mean, that's basically the agent position in there are some variations on a theme. But this idea that we participate in that it is, and for Chris W participate. Now salvation is also about now. You've been baptized you live like it now. But that yeah, that it's also eschatological. So? Yeah, I think it's I think it's something happened with the Reformation. And I'm, like, I'm not upset, upset. The Reformation happened, necessarily. But, but I think we do, it does make it harder to get back to, again, getting back to this historical mindset 1000 years before the Reformation. And to what, how were they thinking about salvation? And how can we learn from that? How can we think about that now, even in the midst of this, even in the midst of, of our own tradition of reformation also? Right,

Charles Kim 51:48

right. Well, one of the things that I was thinking about too, with this, this homily was, you know, as we've been kind of talking about the difference between systematic theologians and sort of historical theologians, one of the I say that, it seems to me that for Chris, awesome, one of the things that makes him so appealing is his rhetoric, but it also makes it difficult for to pin him down exactly. Like we kind of want a hard and fast rule or a logical syllogism, or, you know, something that can, you know, a little soundbite or something. And Chris awesomes, you know, just rejects that at every turn, right? Because part of what he does the reason that I wanted to quote him as well is because his his prose, his language is so beautiful, in part, because it's, it's not, it's imagery, rather than colder explanations. Did you find that to be the case?

Samantha Miller 52:42

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, he's a preacher through and through, and he's got letters and treatises, he's got a handful of treatises that are that seem, they're more cut and dry, but they're never going to be the Cabot ocean, they're never going to be Gregory of Nyssa. They're never gonna be a Gustin. Most of his stuff or sermons, and so he, he's a, he's a preacher, and he's very good at it. And it's why we got his nickname, and it's why he was told to keep doing it. And I actually kinda like, I mean, it can be infuriating, too, but I kind of like it because it is somehow the imagery and the poetry of it gets into our bones in a way that that just propositions can't ever I have a friend who is a professional storyteller who says that stories get past the bouncer in the brain. So when I lecture at my students, they glaze over a bit. But if I start telling them a story that's got some sort of a moral but like something in the story that can some truth there, it can get to them in a way that that, that maybe just electric can't. So yeah, criticism is very much that he's very much a preacher and uses the imagery and the poetry and poetry and he's all prose, but poetry in it in a sense of imaginative preaching, and speaking.

Charles Kim 54:05

Well, yeah, sometimes with Augustine, you find that to where we call them homilies. But at least for him, there'll be portions that just read like poetry to me. There's a little less you know, that there's not quite a fine line between I am now writing poetry, or I am now giving a sermon for him. They all just sort of flow in and out. And it seems the same for for Chris. Awesome. Precisely. And one, one question that I had. So you talked a little bit about your Wesleyan background. And as we were going through this podcast, we started by trying to read everybody from just after Paul, and then just sort of go on from there. But But one thing that we noticed as we were going along is there was something similar to the way that Clement of Alexandria and some of the, you know, early Greek East theologians the way that they talk and wrote that reminded us of sort of modern Wesleyan positions sort of the idea of perfection and how Wesley talks about perfection. And maybe you know, you were just sort of talking a little bit about salvation and you use the phrase backsliding. Could you talk a little bit is that do you find that resonates with your understanding of Wesleyan and Methodist theology? Do you find it to be in some ways closer to some of the Greek patristic authors that you've read?

Samantha Miller 55:22

I do. I do. And I might butcher this, because it's been a while since I took two classes on my Methodist history and theology. But Randy Maddix, I think he's written on this also. There, there is some evidence, there's some John Wesley loved the Eastern fathers. And there's some there's some obvious connections there is us working out his theology. And I, it's been too long since I've taken those classes to be able to tell you what those connections are or where they are specifically. But when they're sound like they're resonances. A lot of times it's because there are because I think the the Wesley's were highly influenced, if not directly by them. In some cases, I think it's directly in some cases, I think it's through, like the hydrogen Anglicanism that they were coming out of, which was influenced by something else and back, you know, all the way back. But, yeah, there is there something the resonance is that's because there are a lot of resonances, I think they're highly compatible. And in the direction of history, it's the Wesley's who were picking up on those themes and the ways of thinking and the ways of understanding God, that that we had, that the Eastern fathers had in particular.

Charles Kim 56:42

Yeah, what am I one of my questions? And again, I recognize that you don't have, you know, you're not really part of the reformed tradition. But one thing that I thought I would throw out there was sort of interesting to me is, as I've done some reading on Calvin's reception of the Church Fathers, that he, he wrote a preface to a set of homilies from Chris awesome that he was going to translate into French. Now, what has been left to us in history is just the Preface. And it doesn't we're not. I think historians are not exactly sure how far he actually got. But it seems that Calvin loved Chris, awesome, even more than Augustine. In fact, when it comes to his biblical commentaries, so Calvin wrote commentaries on every book of the Bible, but he's more likely to choose someone like Chrysostom over Augustine, because what he'll say Is he thinks that Augustine is excessively concerned with Plato. And, and it's this kind of funny, sort of chastise chastisement of Agustin but I just thought that was pretty, pretty fascinating. So, you know, I could hear some resonances to Wesleyan theology and Chrysostom, but in fact, you know, Calvin loved reading his his homilies.

Samantha Miller 57:56

Yeah, yeah. I actually taught a class on the history of exegesis. And so just just dabbled a bit in Calvin's exegesis. And part of me, I mean, part of me wants to say, of course, he liked Chris system better than I got in, like, Chris system is better than Augustine. But you know, we will, we will always have our favorites, right. That's right. I got I've got a friend who thinks that that origin is way better. But I wonder too, if part of it is that Chris systems exegesis is way more grounded than so we, you know, the the now defunct the now sort of unfound we've sort of decided the Alexandria and anti Kean split in the schools of exegesis is just not a helpful thing at all, because they're all doing lots of different things. But the Chris is dumb and is, is more grounded in his exegesis than Agustin often. And I wonder, because of Calvin's super emphasis on well lucid brevity, to begin with us his phrase, but also just his, he's always trying to go back to the languages, he's always trying to go to the intent of the author. And I think he probably just resonates with Christmas, the way that Chris system is interpreting scripture and the things like Chris has done is looking for the intention of the author. Now, he's also not just the human author, he's also looking for God's intention. And but I guess the inner Augustine sort of goes off into more allegory more, sort of a slightly more speculative allegory than Chris system does. Chris is on will do song but it's there's a different feel to it, and it's really hard to describe unless you've read them. But I wonder if that's part of it is just Kelvin was resonating with Chris systems groundedness and the sorts of things he also prized in interpretation as opposed to some of the I love reading Augustine is actually I love the particularly allegorical stuff, actually. But when Augustine is saying, yes, the 153 fish are because there are seven for the perfect number and 10 for the commandments. And you multiply that by three because of the Trinity. And that's what you get, right? Like that sort of stuff. Yeah, just can't put your Kelvin going in for no reason what he prizes. And so I wonder if that's actually just part of what's going on? Yeah, like, Linus has this famous line where when he was dying, what he was, someone asked him, What do you want to do is I really would love a copy of Chris system on Matthew right now.

Charles Kim 1:00:33

That's pretty good. I have not heard that. I'll have to, I'll have to use that. Love. Yeah. So this was very helpful for me and a great conversation. I had the one close that well, actually, maybe I should close to something more about Chris. Awesome. But I was also curious, who were the like you're talking about this book that you're working on with African authors on demonology? and such? Could I mean, would you be willing to share a little bit about that? What exactly who you're reading? Because it sounded like modern African rather than ancient African?

Samantha Miller 1:01:06

Yeah. So I'm putting all the conclusions of this book we've just been talking about in conversation with deliverance theology and the prosperity gospel in modern Africa. So I did my best to span the continent and get voices from a number of different places, although they tended to concentrate in Ghana, more than other than gone, there's, there's some Nigeria and South Africa, and then, you know, small scattering of others, but they tended to concentrate in those places. But primarily these prosperity, gospel and deliverance, voices, more than anyone else. And they are. It's this idea of, they're also looking at the ideas of suffering, and what's going on in the world? And how do we think about this? And so what do we learn trying to get at the so a lot of times in the modern West, we like to, we have trouble talking with our brothers and sisters in the Global South, because we think demons don't exist anymore. And that's excluding the charismatic branches there, they seem to have a lot more ease, talking with them. Because they're their cosmology is much more similar. But for those of us in like mainline traditions, Catholics, Protestants, we just, we tend to not go in for demons anymore. And so it can be hard to have conversation. And so it was wondering, well, if we use Chrysostom, as a bridge figure, who also sort of gets us away from a colonial project, then right, I'm not just saying, Look, these modern we are coming in, and we're talking about these also letting us get around that just a little bit more and saying, Look, he's similar to and different from both contexts, in different ways. And so therefore can challenge and affirm both contexts in different places in different ways. So what is it? What would a conversation be to say, Okay, well, Chris system goes in for a similar cosmology, a similar belief in demons. But he comes to different answers about why they're suffering and what demons can and can't do. And all that and as we explore those questions, what if we could actually have conversation about things like virtue anthropology? soteriology? What does it mean to be saved? What what does it mean to live in the world? Who's in charge of the world? Why is there suffering? You know, can we have any part of these conversations if we see what theological issues are at play underneath this initial like, demons exist or not? But by putting conversation with someone who does believe in the demons and showing that even for Chris system underneath all of this demonology is all of these other layers of connected theological thoughts?

Charles Kim 1:03:43

That's the NSA. Yeah, that sounds that sounds really good. All right. Well, I was trying to think I don't really have one question. I've asked most of them that I was going to say, but anything else that you like parting thoughts for modern readers of Chris awesome, and what we can, what we can glean from him what we can learn from him. Any anything that you would, would like to end with?

Samantha Miller 1:04:09

Sure. I think the thing that we learn from this is that emphasis on the daily decisions that our virtue is ours. And that I mean, we're looking around, there's a lot of suffering in the world right now. We're all pretty high, I imagine very highly aware of what's going on and how hard it can be and how devastating and it can all be. But to to think with Christmas, that Christmas, then would encourage us to think beyond just this to say, well, how are we living within it? And what can we do? And what choices will we make for virtue or for advice, day to day, what are we doing? I think he would say that's that's maybe where we need to be right now.

Charles Kim 1:04:57

All right. Well, thank you very much, somebody So I've enjoyed this conversation and I'm sure my listeners will will as well so

Transcribed by https://otter.ai