Episode 134: Interview with Hannah Nation

We sat down this week with Hannah Nation to discuss her recently published book under Kirkdale Press, '"Faithful Disobedience". Nation edited the words of leaders of the faith in an environment that is growing increasingly hostile toward Christianity. We hope you enjoy the interview!

Timestamps:

3:48- Wang Yi and the Chinese Church

19:27- The House Church Tradition

35:02- Points of Conflict

47:27- Persecution and Eastern Thinking

55:33- What Can We Learn?

Episode Transcript:

Charles Kim 0:00

Hello, and welcome to history of Christian theology. My name is Chad Kim with me this week I will be talking with Hannah nation about a book she has edited called faithful disobedience, writings on church and state from a Chinese house church movement. And this book largely follows the theology and writings of a pastor from China and called Wang Yi. And it was a great pleasure to get to talk with Hannah about this book she has been on before. And we talked a little bit about another book that she edited of sermons from China, during COVID. And she mentioned that this book was going to be coming out soon, I was very excited to get a copy. So we thank grateful to InterVarsity, press IV press academic, for sending us an advance copy. And so I was able to read through that and talk with Hannah, about early rain Church, which is where Yang Wang Yi was a pastor for many years before he was taken into prison. And so we talked a little bit about the history of Christianity and China, a little bit about weighing us life, where he is now which is still in prison. But also just a little bit about what what he has to say, to help us understand the persecution that Christians undergo in China, and how that could could even sort of encourage or challenge us as Christians in places where we don't face the kind of persecution that other Christians do. And also help us have a sense of how to pray for people like when Wang Yi and his church and China so so really appreciate Hannah nation for coming on again, and editing this very powerful and fascinating book of writings related to Wang Yi. I also wanted to say thank you to several people who have written in recently to our and given us comments on iTunes, someone Laval in 76 says thank you for all your hard work and great conversations. I love the way this podcast is presented. It's not just like being in a classroom. But it's also not preachy. And she feels like it's very filled, or this person feels like it's very filled with knowledge, are also great grateful to new REL, who wrote in that they that they've been listening to this, from the beginning somewhere 2020. And they've still lots of podcasts to get current. But it's been very enlightening and helpful, since they don't have as much time to read all these thinkers. And so, so just wanted to say thank you to those of you who have rated and reviewed us on iTunes. It does help people find the podcast. And it's great to know what you all appreciate. And I also want to say thank you to our Patreon supporters, it's because of them that we're able to host this podcast at PodOmatic. And keep our full back catalogue of episodes available. So if you have been supporting us, just know that that support is what makes possible the all these episodes will be made available. So if you if you want to contribute to that you can support us on patreon.com. I'll put a link in the show notes. And yeah, I just appreciate appreciate all the support. Hearing from you all. It's great to know what kind of stuff that you are enjoying and find beneficial. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Hannah nation. This week on a history of Christian theology this week, I don't know I release these like once or twice a month. In this episode today, I have Hannah nation. And for those who have listened more regularly to the podcast, you might remember that we had Hannah on before, and she was has done some work on while she's the managing director of

Hannah Nation 3:48

oh, shoot the Center for our church theology

Charles Kim 3:52

center. Okay, and you guys recently changed your name to or something right? I think there was another,

Hannah Nation 3:57

I might. So I'm with two different organizations. One is China partnership. And the other is the Center for house church theology. So okay.

Charles Kim 4:07

And last time, we talked a little bit about COVID, and about pastors and their sermons that they were giving during COVID. And all of those guys, as I recall, were from the sort of broader house church movement. And today we're going to kind of dig into one specific pastor, who's also part of this house church movement in China. His name is Wang Yi, but the book is called Faithful disobedience writings on church and state from a Chinese house church movement. And Hannah is the editor. But but the the primary kind of author is Wang Yi, although there are a few other people. It's not just weighing yet correct. So and this is with IV press, I think last time it was maybe lexham. Right? Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Well, very good. I was very good. sited about this book because I sort of became, you know, the idea of, of hearing from a pastor who was currently in prison for his faith and a kind of modern day, you know, someone who's suffering modern day persecution, and a very intense way. You know, it was just it seemed like was very prescient, and some online discourse about Christian nationalism, and other kinds of like, ways that Christians in the United States are trying to handle this question of the relationship of the church and the state seemed like it could be helpful to have a voice. That's, that's very different. So I don't I don't mean to color this whole conversation with contemporary things that we're dealing with in the US maybe, but I just found it very refreshing because this guy takes a very bold and faithful stand for, for Christ and is suffering for it. So yeah, so anyway, it was a it was very interesting. And I feel like I, you know, have a whole new perspective on you know, just what it's like to be a Christian and China. So, so who is? Yeah, please respond? Yeah.

Hannah Nation 6:10

It's just gonna say, I don't think it's out of line at all, to for this book to bring to mind a lot of the conversations around nationalism in the western world today in the North America and the United States. I mean, for sure, as I worked on the book, and all those conversations started to rise. You know, I was thinking about it. I would say, Wong, these writings have definitely been shaping a lot of my own thoughts and observations on the debates taking place in the US right now. So I don't Yeah, I think you're spot on. With that. I don't think it's a weird connection to make at all.

Charles Kim 6:53

Yeah, well, I sort of, I guess I was just worried that we may sort of let that color like I wanted his voice to say yes, you know, as the main contributor and but anyway, yeah. But it's, it's hard not to have that stuff in the in the background. Yeah. I'm also I mean, you know, we'll get into this, but he's also Calvinist, and Presbyterian. And, you know, there's some of those connections. And yeah, it's just a lot of interesting things to think about. But, but so who is Wang Yi? Can you tell us a little bit about him? Yeah, before we kind of get into some of his thought and ideas. Yeah.

Hannah Nation 7:25

So he is probably one of the most well known house church pastors, kind of urban contemporary house church pastors in China today. He's from Chengdu in Sichuan Province, which is the southwest of China. So you know, he's, he's not right on the coast, where a lot of you know, the the largest house churches have been, he and his church are further inland. He was before his conversion to Christianity. He was already a very notable figure, kind of in the landscape of Chinese intellectuals, especially. Like traditional liberal intellectuals, human rights advocates in China. He was an avid blogger. One of the things that he was most well known for was actually movie reviews, and kind of film criticism. And one thing I've been learning more and more about recently is is He is a poet. And many of those who know him very well tell me that he could have been a remarkable poet, an extra, like a very, very well known and famous poet. But those are things that he he ended up pursuing. Although he does write a lot of poetry kind of on the side. I am not good at understanding Chinese poetry. My language level is not that high. But any anyone I know who can really engage Chinese poetry, whenever his stuff is read. They'll just be like, Oh, it's so good. It's just amazing. Kind of a fun little tidbit about him. But so he converted to Christianity, and he very quickly began pastoring. It was kind of a just a very quick and rapid change in his life. And he was involved in forming a church called early rain. It went through a couple of different variations of that name, but the most recent name is early rain Covenant Church and that Church grew very quickly. By 2018, when he was arrested, early rain had probably around 600 people attending on an average Sunday, around 500 members, active members and had planted many churches, not only across Chengdu, but other parts of Sichuan as well. So very large church very active, not what most people will think of when they think of the house church. They owned property, they owned a couple floors of an office building, and had a very large theological library. They were getting involved in things like Christian education. So just kind of this just very robust expression of a Christian community, and a lot of the things that are traditionally associated with faith communities. While he never stopped writing, or speaking publicly, he's always been a very vocal voice. He's also been involved internationally in different things, he came to the US and he actually met George Bush, as kind of a representative of the house churches in China. And so as you can imagine, you know, to some extent, perhaps a conflict with the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party was inevitable. I think by 2018, after the new religious regulations were put into place, he very much knew he was headed for probably substantial arrest, and some form of incarceration. But I think it's safe to say, neither he nor anyone at the church really anticipated just the extent of what ended up happening. So in December of 2018, he was arrested. All of the church leadership, the entirety of the church leadership was arrested, his wife was arrested. And over the following days, the entirety of the church's property was confiscated or destroyed, all of their assets were seized. And then essentially, over the course of the following weeks, roughly half of early rains members were either detained or arrested or harassed or interfered with in some way, some quite violently, some, you know, a bit more casually. But their church, you know, they are they seek to continue to have a church I net identity. But in many ways, it's safe to say that that was a very effective, you know, closure of that church and, you know, interference of that church, while he was sentenced a year later to nine years in jail for subversion of the state, which is a political sentence. It is. i There's a reporter who has said it is the harshest sentence given to a house church pastor in recent decades, and and I have no reason to doubt that. So. Obviously, it's more it I wouldn't say it's one of I would say it is the most intense example of persecution of a church in, you know, recent decades within China. So, yeah, he's he's still in jail. His wife is no longer in jail, but she is under house arrest. And, yeah, we we pray for him and pray for his perseverance in the circumstances that he's in.

Charles Kim 14:29

Yeah. Wow. Such a intense story. I mean, you know, and there lots of questions. I just, you know, I'm trying to think of where to go first. One of the things that I wanted to know about sort of his background was, you know, he, as you say, he is eloquent. So you can tell that he kind of has that literary background, but where did he get his kind of theological education? Like, it seems like you know, he references Calvin he rests it references Westminster Confession And at what point Plato's Republic? You know, that's sort of broader, but, you know, seems to have a pretty solid grasp of, of theology. And he is, and not only does he have a solid grasp of it, he's very convicted about it. So, you know, it's kind of it's almost, it was almost surprising how recent his conversion was, before he was arrested. So, you know, it was something like 13 years, 12 years, between, like starting this church, and a place that's evidently hostile to Christians, and really flowering and growing. And then yeah, to end up in prison for it. So yeah, anything about like, how did you just as an all private study,

Hannah Nation 15:38

more or less, yeah, he, so he was trained as a legal scholar in the Chinese system. Yeah. So that would be his formal education background. And then, but he he did not attend Seminary. He is not, you know, formally trained in that regard. But, you know, as you know, he's has a very sharp mind, he's an avid reader. And essentially, you know, just, to some degree, has self educated on all of these theological topics, and I think that is, you know, his church. As I mentioned, they had a very large theological library, I can't remember how many books were taken from it were seized from it, but it was in the 1000s. So, this was definitely a value. I will say, so he, not initially, you know, not at his the point of his conversion, not when the church was planted, but over that kind of 12 to 13 year period that you brought up. The church became essentially a Presbyterian Church in polity. And so as you've noted, he definitely was very much influenced by Calvinism and the Calvinistic traditions, and even so far as just, you know, church polity bringing early rain into a Presbyterian polity. So

Charles Kim 17:35

and as I recall from our previous conversation, there's that, you know, a lot of the house churches have a kind of broader reformed perspective. But they but maybe they don't all have a Presbyterian polity.

Hannah Nation 17:49

Yeah, yes. Correct. Yeah. So I would say, I'm kind of a, a very broad reformed perspective is on the rise within Chinese houses, particularly urban house churches, I wouldn't say it's a majority of house churches at this point, but it would be one of the, it would probably be the most rapidly growing trend, and the house churches. And then kind of within that subset, there are some churches that are going as far as to adopt a Presbyterian polity. So he would definitely be on kind of the far spectrum and the far end of the spectrum, if you wanted, in terms of just church organization and his ecclesiology. It's definitely not a majority of house churches that would have adopted those those forms of church government as well. But he's a very influential voice. And early rain is a very influential church, as you can imagine, also controversial because not everyone agrees with Presbyterianism or Reformed theology. And so you know, he's very well known but and very influential, but not necessarily widely embraced and his views on everything so

Charles Kim 19:27

well, and one of the things that you note in some of his writings, even some of his letters, he seems to have in mind, not only just like a broad readership, but like other people within the house church movement, like, you know, he's sort of putting his mark on, you know, where the direction he thinks that they should head, which to some extent raises another question. Again, I think we briefly covered this in the last episode, but if we, you know, one of the main things that it seems like he wants to get across here is both the importance of calling it house church, he talks a lot about that sort of history that that he feels is very important. But But that, you know, has to be kind of contrasted with. And part of the explanation for I, as I understand it, his arrest, which is his rejection of the state sponsored three self movement. So I know that there's a long history, and a lot of that is covered in the book, but any kind of quick hits like so how that kind of shapes his own perspective. And then like I say, I think it also kind of gives some explanation for his his arrest.

Hannah Nation 20:34

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, well, the whole house church versus three self church, that could be a whole podcast at its own, it's a long topic. And probably the best way to dive into much of the house church perspective on it is to just buy the book. Right. But But essentially, while me and particularly two other very influential house church pastors from Beijing, Jing Tian, Ming and Qing Ming are, they're very invested in this idea that the house churches need to know their history, and they need to see themselves as having an eye a common identity. Kind of in contrast to the three self church that involves their history. And I mean, this is I think this is, to me one of the most fascinating questions just about the house churches in China and their conflict with not only the state, but the three self church is just, you know, does history matter? And how does it matter? You know, and how do our interpretations of that history continue to shape ecclesiology ecclesiological identities so that basically, the house churches contend that much of the the persecution that they have faced has been, to some degree at the hands of their 30 self church, and for sure, involves an inability and unwillingness to recognize a governing authorities, religious oversight of the church. And of course, you know, the three self church has responses to those things. And this is a long, ongoing debate within Chinese Christianity. But I do think especially the first third of the book, which is it's called our house church manifesto, and it was essentially a small manifesto booklet that Wang Yi compiled in cooperation with these pastors from Beijing. You know, they they want the house churches to have to be seen as a spiritual tradition, I think, or a church tradition. Which I think is a question we really need to think through more. It's not if you, if you look at a lot of Chinese art scholarship on the Chinese churches and literature. This is not an idea that the Western Academy has, has really latched on to. But I think especially given these very prominent house church pastors making such forceful arguments on this topic, I think there's a need to better look at this question of, you know, is the house church a tradition? Is there a spiritual tradition there at this point? That kind of goes beyond just an administrative kind of government political legal question, but goes to a more of a spiritual question.

Charles Kim 24:08

And one way I feel like maybe I don't remember if it was actually in your essay, or just kind of, I think it wasn't your essay, you brought this up a little bit, but one thing that you can see within his kind of at least one Gi, and then the, the broader writers of this manifesto, you get, like, you know, you do get a sense of sort of a connection to reformed Presbyterian theology, but almost an Anabaptist separation. And so there's, you know, I guess, to some extent, is that one way that you would characterize what makes its its own unique tradition, because we don't see a very, I mean, I couldn't I don't know that I could name someone who I call Presbyterian and polity but Anabaptist I mean, that's pretty I mean, that you know, that gets really theological, maybe less spiritual. I don't you know, I don't know depending on how we want to use those words. Is that like, is that what makes it a unique tradition? Or are there other things that you are like thinking about as its own kind of tradition?

Hannah Nation 25:11

Well, I think those things definitely are at play. So, as I, as I said, you know, Wong is on a pretty far end of a spectrum in terms of adopting certain policies and systematic theologies, the guys in Beijing in the book, I would say, they're very representative of the kind of rise of a broad reformed perspective, without, you know, they're still very much in a nondenominational, you know, very, kind of, broadly, more broadly, Chinese house church identity. But so, so but I think some of the things that they pick up on at the beginning of the book that they feel like are markers of a house church tradition, are things like piety. So the spiritual disciplines are very important among all house churches, whether they skew reformed or not, the practices of prayer and fasting, and, you know, a lot of the spiritual disciplines are very present, and very, very important. And all of these different stripes of the house church, they also talk about the way of the cross, and just our ideas of suffering, and what our union with Christ requires of us in terms of suffering with Christ. And they point to that as a common trait in this house church tradition that they're looking at. But then, yeah, a very much a very Anabaptist stick almost perspective on the church's relationship to the state. And so I think you're, you're right, that it's, I have a hard time thinking of someone that really is a good correlation outside of the Chinese context. And I think that's one reason why it's so fascinating, and also why it's so important to hear. Because it is I, in my opinion, a very new perspective, and one that should be considered not just within the Chinese context, but in other contexts as well. I think it's very interesting the way this, you know, very systematically Reformed theology is combining with a very, you know, almost Anabaptist stick perspective on the, the church and the state. So, I think we're there I really am hopeful that, you know, a really, really solid like, Cuypers scholar would pick up this book and, and engage it and write something about it. And because I just would love to hear that perspective. You know, hear someone engage what Mommy is saying, and the way he blends these two very disparate perspectives together. So yeah,

Charles Kim 28:47

well, I had a quote, I was just rereading some stuff this morning. He says on like, it's like page 28. And the why we are a house church. Just this the starkness of this kind of position. religious matters never belong to my country, China, nor do they belong to the United States. Oh, just above that, sorry, we do not accept interference and religious freedom by an atheistic political party's Religious Affairs Bureau, we do not accept the notion of the Lord's Church submitting to a managerial department, we do not accept religious affairs as a function of the government. In other words, religious matters never belong to my country, China, nor do they belong to the United States, nor Africa, South Africa, real religion, godliness belongs to Christ belongs to the world and belongs to the conscience of every believer. So I think, you know, does get that kind of, you know, how Stark he sees these things. And, and I mean, I guess, you know, to some extent, right, like, this is one thing that systematic theologians don't always acknowledge, I guess, or maybe they're coming to more but the fact that our theology has come from a situation, you know, all theology has a kind of context, and we shouldn't ignore that. So, you know, I think probably some reason Why there? It's harder to find a Presbyterian? Who thinks this way about the church state's relation is there haven't been as many Presbyterians in the kind of context like he's in. And so you have to, you know, you have to look at the world based on that. And I, I understand why he doesn't want, you know, the government dictating, I guess, in one of the three self churches, it seems like there's the government gets to appoint certain people in the hierarchy of their organizational structures, which reminded me and this was a question I was going to ask you, but about, you know, the recent settlement between the Catholic Church and the Communist Party, I think they get to approve or disapprove of certain Bishop choices. And that was a big, you know, controversial move by the current pope. But, you know, it seems like maybe even Catholicism is going more towards the three self kind of integration with the government, whereas, you know, what, Wang Yi, and maybe some others in this movement are just radically opposed to having the government involved in that at all.

Hannah Nation 31:07

Yeah, yeah. No, I, you know, it would have been very interesting to be able to get one news opinion, on the agreements that the Catholic Church, you know, made, I believe this happened after his arrest. So, you know, because, essentially, until those agreements were made, a lot of the positions of the Catholic Church would have been very similar. And their unwillingness to comply or to integrate with the religious structures for oversight and China. And so that was a it was a huge, I mean, the the agreements between the CCP and the and the Catholic Church were that was a huge, huge shift and their way of addressing these issues, so, but yeah, I mean, I think that yeah, he's, yeah, unbending is probably a really good way to put it. Very unbending.

Charles Kim 32:26

Yeah, yeah. Well, and one other thing I'll just stick on. I'm curious about the sort of, yeah, like you say, thinking that of the house church is a tradition, one of the questions like, I'm, I think a lot about ecclesiology. Lately, and we've dealt with it in a few ways. But one other way that, that I feel like I'm trying to remember exactly where he says it. But he talks about the importance of not being alone in this and so so he also sees the, you know, the ecclesiology isn't just in the face of the state, or isn't just, you know, a question of, of how does one, you know, the polity, but it's also what it means for a believer to be with other believers. And he has a very, and it's sort of a rejection of kind of a liberal individualist mindset as well, and wants to see, not only unity with Christ, but unity with one another. In Christ, right. So, yeah, so, you know, maybe Is that Is that another part of this kind of tradition? Is how, you know, how important he sees the Yeah, that bond between believers?

Hannah Nation 33:30

Oh, for sure. I mean, I think that this is, I have to ask myself, you know, how much is this arising out of just a more communal worldview, you know, as a, as an Asian? And how much is this coming from, you know, a kind of theological conviction. But you know, I think in the end, that you can't separate the two. All of the house churches I know, and all of the Chinese Christians, I know, really, they, they rarely think about these matters in terms of an individualistic AI. And they really think about this as a much more collective way. And so the question of, you know, religious freedom or persecution is not so much about an individual's persecution or an individual's conflict with this state. But it really is about the Christian identity in the, in the collective sense as the church and I mean, this, this is just so much the it's so foundational to so much of their theological perspective that it's it's there and everything. And when you're reading it, it's hard not to see it. But, you know, they they really are very focused on just what the church both what the church offers to Chinese society as a body, but also how the point of conflict is the church. It's not what an individual believes the conflict between the conflict with the CCP is over a group identity that isn't under the oversight of the government. And so, yeah, I mean, for sure, just the, the idea of our unity with other Christians, the idea that we cannot do this alone, we ought not to do it alone, is on every page, I think of what Wang Yi is writing. And he's very, and not only individual congregations, but this also so much of why he's concerned, I think, about instilling house church identity are kind of a tradition idea, I have an idea of a tradition among the house churches, because he really believes that they are called to be corporately united with each other, even if they don't agree on all these things. They are as the church in China bound together, and they fulfill the kingdom they are the kingdom when they see that and they understand that.

Charles Kim 36:51

Yeah, well, and I guess that, like you say, that kind of leads, we can kind of move a little bit closer to his thinking about his arrest and how he understands persecution, which I also think, is such a moving testimony. But But I was just thinking that when, you know, one of the things like we call it a house church, and I think you've said this, but it's almost misleading, because sometimes that might sound like it's underground. But one of the things that he's very, you know, you talked about the church buildings and the libraries, and, you know, but he and he talks a lot about the visibility of the church. And so he wants and speaking of like individualism, he also rejects the idea of like, you know, his persecution has to do with individual rights or human rights. So he, he writes a manifesto just before, like, is it months before he's arrested? And I think I mean, or at least, like less than a

Hannah Nation 37:44

year, yeah, he wrote, My declar is called my declaration of fate of faithful disobedience. It's where the title for the book comes from. He wrote it and October, he was arrested in December. And his direction was to release it publicly if he was held for more than 48 hours. So.

Charles Kim 38:05

And in that he, he very explicitly says, I think that the Chinese government is not in keeping with their own legal traditions. And he kind of he has sort of like some legal things that he mentions, but on the whole, he says, I want this to be about the visibility of the church, I want this to be about how China's responding to the broader house churches, it's not about me, it's not about my individual rights or human rights, or, you know, I, which I found refreshing. And I can also kind of interesting, refreshing is not the right word. But I found it compelling. Because he was because he is very aware of that. Right? So you're talking about in his background as a legal scholar, like he also knows that he could fight this legally, but he's very cognizant and very deliberate about separating those things out.

Hannah Nation 38:56

Yeah, I, it's always that question is really interesting. I've had a lot of people ask me, because he makes this statement, where in that declaration, where he says, I'm not fighting for personal rights, and I've had people say to me, Do you actually believe like, Do you believe him on that? You know, like, is he really not fighting for human rights? Or is this just a rhetorical statement that he makes? You know? Yeah. And I think part of it is that, you know, I think he can't escape, being a human rights lawyer, you know, like, it is so much the framework through which he sees things and he thinks about things. And so I do think, you know, tracking his writings and following his writings over a period of time, you do see him think more and more as a pastor and as a theologian. A lot of his language of rights changes from, for example, the beginning of the book. To the end of the book, I mean, in the bit in one of the chapters in the first third, which is the house church manifesto, I think he, he like, directly says something about fighting for rights. And then you end with my declaration of faithful obedience. And he's making the exact opposite statement where he's saying, I'm not fighting for personnel, right. But I think you're exactly right, that it all comes down to the visibility of the church, and his extremely deep belief that the only reason you fight for the visibility of the church is for the good of the society around it. And I think, ultimately, he really believes that the church is the best gift that can be given to China. And one of the things not only with Wang Yi, but with all of these pastors is that they love China, they've, they love their people. They are not anti China. And they deeply desire to see healing and wholeness in Chinese society, which is very broken. I don't know that I've met any Chinese pastor who doesn't feel very broken and sorrowful over the state of Chinese society, and just the the breakdown of trust and moral order. And so for them, it's not this, you know, abstract thing about, you know, preserving the church, because it's an institution that you know, to be preserved or something, they really believe that this is the best way they can live their cert cities and serve their cities is buying through the church. And so while he, at one point in the book, he says very clearly that the reason persecution of the church is an evil is not because of the people that it's hurting, you know, in terms of the Christians, because he basically says, All Christians are called to walk the way of the cross with Jesus. So it's not about whether Christians are suffering or not. The problem with persecuting the church is that it limits those who do not yet believe from hearing the truth of Christ. And I think that if you're gonna boil anything down, you know, if you're gonna boil it all down to the just one idea that puts fire and longing his belly and keeps him going, you know, yeah, that the reason not to submit to the governing authorities, the reason not to participate in the three self movement, the reason not to remain private, in his faith is all because he is so committed to serving his city and the people of China, through the church and through the gospel.

Charles Kim 43:18

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I, this is this is not necessarily a contrast, but how he expresses his love for the city is kind of interesting, because I think this is when he's talking to Christians, maybe in the United States. And he's in Chinese people who may the Chinese mission Conference in Baltimore, because at the end, he he says this thing, and I was really kind of taken aback on 141. He says, Do you think God would send a person in love with Roman culture to be an ambassador to Rome? Faith is turning to God with despair in this world. And he saw like, I don't mean that. But like, I don't mean to contradict what you just said. But yeah, it is. It's a complicated way that he expresses his concern for China because you're right. I think he does want to see the the gospel spread, and he does think that, but yeah, but he's not like he does not, you know, he's unflinching in his criticism. Well, yes.

Hannah Nation 44:16

Love for China, in no way utilizes rose colored glasses on China, you know, and so I think he, when I say that he loves China. I really mean in he he wants to see a better you know, he wants to see healing and wholeness there. And but he's, he definitely is willing to criticize, and definitely feels a lot of despair over it. Absolutely.

Charles Kim 44:55

Yeah, I was yeah, it was just really taken aback because I was just thinking like when I was a kid in the midst denarius would come to our church or something, they would talk about their love for that place. And, and you know, it's so different though, when you're, you know, when you're one year when it's your people to I feel like yeah, like if I'm a missionary, if I were to go to China, it'd be a really different proposition than if a native born Chinese legal scholar, you know, his way of expressing that has to be very different.

Hannah Nation 45:22

I think one of the most important passages in the book for understanding, while nice perspective on this is it's called something in the landfill. Oh, yeah. All of a sudden, but I refer to this a lot when talking and writing about well, he, he has this passage in which he essentially describes the world as as a sinking ship. And, but a sinking ship that has, you know, this orchestra playing on it, and he asks the question, if the orchestra realizes that the ship is thinking, you know, what is it supposed to do? Like, does it is it supposed to jump ship? Is it supposed to just stop playing? And he basically says, No, the orchestra is supposed to play its heart out as the ship sinks. And that's such a great description of his view of the world, and what the presence of the church in the world is. In that same essay, he talks about a master ballet dancer, dancing in the midst of a landfill, and how, and he basically says, the landfill doesn't take away from the beauty of the dance, if anything, it enhances the beauty of the dance, because of the contrast, you know. And so I think that, that describes his, his relationship with China, in many ways. He, you know, he, he is so fierce and calling it out and so willing and desirous to criticize it, I think, because he sees something more beautiful that he wants to see played out. Across Yeah.

Charles Kim 47:25

Yeah, my, my I underlined and mark this, on that landfill section. And I also, you know, at the beginning, you said that he was a poet, and, you know, sometimes, like, I would at least call this a poetic image. And so, you know, I don't know, I don't know about Chinese poetry at all. But but at least the image felt like someone who could, you know, the dancing, that you're just saying, but also he says, on 170 That Jesus Christ, or this is what is amazing about the Gospel, Jesus came to the landfill and gave the landfill meaning another way of, you know, just going back to that landfill image, but But yeah, it's a, it's a very, again, sort of jolting image. Calling the oil, the landfill, you kind of go Oh,

Hannah Nation 48:11

yeah. I also think it's interesting. This is again, also though, I, I would love to have, like a Kiper scholar, interact with him, just because I, you know, I grew up in the reformed tradition, you know, very much in the, in the, in the, you know, tradition of, you know, you know, the world is created good, and it's fallen, but it's good. And, you know, we redeem it. And so and, and not to say that one news perspective is necessarily contradicting that, but I do think this is an area in which he doesn't fit neatly into category. So you know, you're gonna hear a whole lot of traditional European reform thinkers calling the world the land, a landfill, you know. He's melding together a lot of different perspectives and ideas, and I am hopeful that there will be some interesting interaction with his work from different perspectives as well.

Charles Kim 49:23

Yeah, well, the last thing that I wanted to ask you about is the his kind of posture towards persecution. And this comes up, you know, he writes about this in a few different places. But early on, he says, Thanks be to God. In recent years, urban church, house churches are still experiencing intermittent persecutions. And like throughout he the book, he basically, I mean, you know, you don't ever want to say that he like wants to be persecuted like, you know, I mean, going all the way back to to the martyrdom of Polycarp Christians have said it's not not our job to seek martyrdom. Yeah. But to be ready when it comes. But you know, he is almost straddling that line of like, he thinks that persecutions are in a way necessary, I guess to, again, maybe for the visibility of the church, maybe for just to see how intense they are being persecuted by the CCP, these sorts of things. But yeah, I found that like, you know, could you say a little bit about his understanding of persecution, and why that's, you know, it's not just rejoicing when it happens, but like, it seems to take it a step step further. Yeah.

Hannah Nation 50:39

Oh, yeah. Yeah, this has been, you know, just even for me, personally, probably one of the most challenging things to think through. But I will say, this is not unique to longyi. This is, you know, going back to earlier in our conversation, this is what this is a very common perspective among house church pastors. That persecution, in some way, is a gift to the church. And I have I have heard them use that those exact words that persecution is a gift to the church. And, you know, as an as an American, Christian, just everything in me reacts to that. And just wants to say, no, that's not nice. The church does best when it is free and flourishing. But that is very much not what the house churches perspective is. And I think there are two, probably, I think there are two kind of key reasons for that. The first is that they really believe that persecution is a time of purification for the church, that it is a time when God purifies the church, and those who are, you know, committed remain and those who are not depart. The other thing is, and this is a very big theme in one news, writing, too, is that persecution is an apologetic moment. And so persecution is a time for the church to show the world what the gospel Actually yes. And I think that often, you know, brings to mind a lot of the early churches, you know, kind of perspectives on, you know, when you are persecuted, this is an opportunity to speak the gospel to the powers that be. And so just that kind of idea of of apologetics as your defense before the emperor of the faith, and what you believe in the house church, very much leans into that idea. And so not only woggie, but so many of the house church pastors that are, you know, they talk about their arrests are there times in jail, as times to speak the gospel to the authorities that are persecuting them. Not only that, but they also talk about it as a time to preach the gospel to parts of Chinese society that they might not usually have access to, you know, the house churches today are, especially in the cities, very middle class, kind of similar to, you know, what we deal with in the Western world. And they often can struggle to know how to bring the gospel and the hope of the Gospel to migrant workers or those who are, you know, criminal offenders. And so they really are, they mean into time in jail is a time to preach the gospel to the people who are incarcerated with them. And I've heard many, many stories of people using that time to preach the gospel to, you know, drug dealers, or thieves or all sorts of different people that they may not encounter on the street in a Chinese suburb. So, so, so I think that, you know, these are the things that are behind this idea that persecution is good for the church. I think you can only say that when you really have an understanding of Our union with Christ. And you know, both that because we're united to Christ, we share in his sufferings, but also the power that we receive through that, you know, it's not a light, they don't say it lightly with a saying that persecution is for the church, they know what they're talking about. And they have counted the stakes, you know, and are committed despite them. So.

Charles Kim 55:33

Yeah, it's one. I want to end with how you think like one year and maybe even just your own perspective, you know, what, what Christians can learn from this from one year and from the house churches. But it also strikes me that at one point, he he reads a lot from the second half of Acts, And Paul's trials and Paul's persecutions. And it always is kind of interesting to me. I think I first learned this from Andrew walls, but he said when he went to Sierra Leone, he realized that the book of Acts was more powerful there. And I think he kind of meant the power of the Spirit and some of the early parts of Acts and walls. His perspective was that the Scottish Presbyterians were sort of overly concerned about what was going on in Romans and never thought about acts. In a different way here for one year, we see a Presbyterian reformed person saying, hey, look, I'm getting, you know, like, I see God speaking in this part of the book that, frankly, I can never quite remember what happens in the second half of Yeah. But But for him, that's the that like, that is where God speaks the loudest. Because, you know, he understands that Yeah, yeah.

Hannah Nation 56:45

Yeah, I think in terms of what we can learn from them, or take away from them. I mean, there's a lot, I think the main thing is to reflect for ourselves on where our ultimate allegiances lie, you know, I think that's something all people struggle with, wherever you find yourself, you know, whether it's in a very severe context, like China, in the CCP, whether it's, you know, middle class, comfortable life in North America, we all have things that are competing for our ultimate loyalty, you know, and our top love. And I think the the really big message from lunghi in the house churches across China is that you only only Christ can take that place, you know, and, and that's, you know, not that everything becomes clear, when that's the case, there's obviously a lot that is still confusing and unclear on life. But I think it is a big idea that we struggle to remember in the US often, and so, you know, we don't have you don't have to be in a context of persecution, to feel the pressures of life and society to woo your top allegiance to somewhere else, you know. And so, you know, I don't think anyone here in the US is facing anything like woggie has faced but I do think we all have times where we have to ask ourselves where our loyalties lie and remain faithful in those situations, so yeah, I think for me that's probably the the main takeaway

Charles Kim 58:53

All right. Well, Hannah nation I just want to thank you for taking some more time to talk with me I've learned so much from you and from this book, so appreciate your work and putting it together and to IV press for for for for publishing it and getting a copy to me, I guess. I don't know. When does it actually launch? We're at the November

Hannah Nation 59:13

Yeah, it launches next week. So it launches December 6. We're really excited the anniversary of his arrest is December 9. And so we wanted to time the release to be close in time to the anniversary of his arrest so you can pre order it and you know, before then, but starting December 6, so it'll be out there for everyone.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai